Jan 28, 2021
What Speakers Can Learn From Miles Davis
James Taylor interviewed Jeff Ponders and they talked about What Speakers Can Learn From Miles Davis
In today's episode Jeff Ponders talked about, What Speakers Can Learn From Miles Davis.
Jeffery Ponders is a keynote speaker, tech entrepreneur and jazz musician who helps organizations and individuals unlock their best performance. Previously he has led marketing and innovation strategy for leading brands such as Walmart, Campbell’, and General Motors. Today, using a mix of live performance, real-world stories, and techniques from jazz masters, he helps teams develop underutilized talents, boldly tackle challenges, and collaborate more effectively to discover their big ideas and achieve results.
What we cover:
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Reaction vs Response
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What speakers can learn from Miles Davis
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Phrasing and rhythm
Resources:
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Read full transcript at https://speakersu.com/what-speakers-can-learn-from-miles-davis-sl094/
James Taylor
Hi, it's James Taylor, founder of SpeakersU. Today's episode was first
aired as part of International Speakers Summit the world's largest
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but not before you listen to today's episode.
Hey there, it's James Taylor. And I'm delighted today to be joined by Jeff Ponders, Jeff Ponders, is a keynote speaker, tech entrepreneur and jazz musician who helps organizations and individuals unlock their best performance. Previously, he has led marketing and innovation strategy for leading brands such as Walmart, Campbell's and General Motors today using a mixture of live performance, real world stories and techniques from jazz masters. He helps teams develop under utilized talents, boldly tackle challenges, and collaborate more effectively discover their big ideas and achieve results. my great pleasure to have Jeff join us today. So welcome, Jeff.
Jeff Ponders
Thanks so much, James. It's a pleasure to be here.
James Taylor
So share with everyone what's going on in your world just now. Oh,
wow,
Jeff Ponders
there's a whole lot going on right now. So wrapping up into really
kicking this speaking platform off using jazz to help others unlock
performance, which is a ton of fun. For me, it's given that up and
playing professionally. I'm kind of I'm not that old, but almost 30
years.
James Taylor
Early, what's what
Jeff Ponders
I have here back then I can tell you that about two feet shorter.
Um, but so it's been a lot of fun to see the response to you know,
bringing a saxophone on stage. And talking about the same concepts
become proficient as a musician, not just not just proficient, but
really become really good professional, as a musician, and how
those same processes apply to the, to the professional world. And
legitimately every professional. It's been a lot of fun. So
watching that platform has been great. I'm releasing an album in
the next two months. And that's been really exciting. So created an
album called Spark, which is designed to actually spark creativity
and performance, oddly enough. And so it's been an interesting
journey. My family has been very supportive, because there have
been a lot of late nights. That stated and also, my wife and I are
expecting our third kid in a couple months. And so yeah, yeah,
yeah, we are out here doing things. So you've got a lot, you've
James Taylor
got a lot going on just now in your life and your work. And let's
take us back. How did you how did a jazz musician end up on stages
as a keynote speaker, talk to us about that journey. And I split
the interest as well, when you were making that transition into
going on stages as a speaker as well, who are those mentors in your
life?
Jeff Ponders
I guess, I think I can do an abbreviated version. So in 2007, I was
watching PBS. Cuz you know, that's what guys do. We watch PBS Yep,
which is when you're 24 years old. And so I'm watching PBS. And I
see this guy playing jazz guitar. And like, just like playing the
guitar. He's really good. Man. He went to Berkeley. And then turns
out, he's an entrepreneur. He's running an agency and he's on a
second startup, exit off the first one. I was like, that guy's
amazing. I have to meet this guy. And literally the next week,
unbeknownst to me, I end up in a rehearsal with him. And we and so
for the last 11 years, we play music together. That guy is Josh
Linkner, I think is actually on, on the conference as well. Josh is
amazing. Josh is an amazing human being. And so literally, from the
moment I met him, Josh has mentored me, through many phases of my
life, everything from entrepreneurship to, you know, what does it
mean, to be a good speaker wasn't mean to be a speaker who isn't
just a professional. I've been an executive and agencies. And
that's cool. And I've started companies. But I love music just as
much as I love building value in a corporate setting. And what does
it mean to bring all of yourself into whatever it is you do, and in
finding ways to create value that don't leave you saying I left
something on the table. So just been a great mentor. So that's that
stated, I kind of went to the corporate world knowing that I wanted
to play music, but also knowing that I was entrepreneurial. And so
as I navigated the world of starting companies, making some money
losing some money, at the same time playing music, it was always
How can I find a way to merge my passions? And being a student of
business models, and then obviously saying Josh's work and seeing
folks like Michael gold, like, Hey, I can really take what I you
know, that they're they're processing, there's science behind Music
that has actually impacted who I am as a professional, I can even
look back two lessons early in my career in marketing, where
improvisation was a critical, critical component to being
successful, you know, things never go exactly how you want them to
go as much as you can plan. And I would never be shaken. Like, I
could look at some of my teammates, just like, Oh, my God, this guy
is fun. And I started recognizing that those those lessons were
translating in ways that I just hadn't had paid attention to. And,
you know, one of the things I think is really important is the idea
of how do we how do we tackle failure? Because, you know, failure
is anything in life that that that can throw us off. It's what
happens when things go wrong. And I know as a musician, things may
not be perfect, but they never go wrong. Yeah. And so how can I
start from that? How can I take that if others do that, too,
James Taylor
it reminds me of there's a line which says, in jazz, there's no
such thing as failure only opportunities is a very, is a very
different mindset, because and knowing a lot of being involved,
like you and I like being involved in jazz music for a long time as
a jazz drummer, and having a father and a grandfather, both jazz
musicians, there was there was always that sense of not only you
know, did you learn from sleep, but sometimes you would actually
put yourself in positions musically put yourself down avenues
alleys, you weren't quite sure how you were going to get out of
musically. And you were doing it live in front of an audience. So
there was a there was a heightened sense of risk when you're
Jeff Ponders
doing it. Absolutely. Right. It's funny, Miles Davis has a quote,
he said, fear no mistakes, there are none. And there's a really
good story behind that with him and Herbie Hancock. And I believe
that, you know, what we consider mistakes are really opportunities
to create magic. I mean, imagine if you were talking about magic in
real life, there's no, there's no, without suspense, magic isn't
just somebody doing something. But it's that suspense that oh, my
God, what's going to happen? On the embracing of risk that makes it
real a powerful moment? It's, look, look what happened when we
tackle this challenge. And then amazing things happened.
James Taylor
Now the audience can sense that as well. They can sense that
whether you're a speaker, or whether you're a jazz musician, when
you're taking those risks, and you're going, and it feels and it
obviously is unique to every every performance. But I'm also
guessing that you don't go in go into like a, like a speech, let's
say you're giving a keynote or something going in there saying, I
have no idea what I'm going to be saying today. You you have you
have your you have your, your your ABA or your bridges, you have
your thing. So tell me, I mean, what other things can speakers
learn from how jazz musicians, they have this lightness of foot
when they're when they're going into giving a performance? But at
the same time, there's huge skill, huge practice behind there as
well. And there is a structure even if you don't necessarily see it
first. Absolutely right. It's
Jeff Ponders
funny. You know, I think there's a lot of fun, like white wall,
calamity can kind of be seen by the audience, you never really know
what's what's happening. I'm example, I did a keynote a couple of
weeks ago. And when I started playing, my read crapped out. And so
I listened back to the audio, and it sounded fine. But I know that
I was handicapped in terms of what I was able to actually execute.
But you never know that there were, there were bad things
happening. And subsequently, as a musician, jazz musician at that,
it was I see what's happening. I'm skilled enough to understand how
to navigate these waters. So one of the cool things about
improvisation, a lot of folks think that it's random action. And
that's, it couldn't be farther from the truth. You can't be a good
improviser without having a good basis of skills and techniques. In
fact, improvisation is really the application of known skills and
techniques and unknown circumstances. And so, you know, if you're
an accountant, you you understand life or FIFO, and you understand
how to navigate numbers. If you're a marketing person, you
understand how to manipulate graphics or words. But what happens
when constraints happen, that's effectively what a challenge is,
there's a there's a new constraint. And when a constraint happens,
you've got to be able to apply your skills, your experience and
maturity mean, how you how you make decisions, in order to make the
best decision in that moment to get to a better outcome. And in
the
James Taylor
in those moments. Because I think about in terms of music and jazz,
you're not really thinking it's it's there's there's difference
between or you could be saying, I'm thinking I need to go to this
next part. And I think you obviously see that with, with speakers,
there's not really a they often are thinking but they're not
thinking is a strange kind of, well, they're, they're, they're
reacting. I don't know, I mean, what's your take on that? Because
that feels like there needs to be this step beyond thinking that
you need to get to in order to be able to express yourself.
Jeff Ponders
Absolutely. I mean, we could talk about muscle memory all day, but
that's what I think about is the difference between reaction and
response or reaction is, somebody happens to not flinch. Right. But
a response that is a measure of thought behind it. You know, I
think one of the things with music that's really powerful is this
concept of listening. In fact, actually, I have a, I have a segment
that I do about listening to the kind of talks about a variety of
forms of listening, listen to yourself to understand what's
happening with you, in the moment, listening to the folks around
you so, so you understand how your team is, how your team what your
team is doing. But also listening to the audience and see how
they're responding to the product that you're presenting. And
honestly, as a musician, listening is the most important skill. And
so when you apply listening along with the actual skills that you
develop, so what happens now is you're no longer reacting or you're
not flinching. But there is thought that happens. It's just really,
really fast. And the thought is based in experience, experience,
knowledge and maturity, it's, I understand what this chord sounds
like, I know, I naturally know because I've rehearsed enough, what
types of patterns and scales work on top of that chord. And, you
know, on one hand, because it's structure, I know what the chord
progression is, I know where the music should be going. But because
I'm listening, I know that the piano keyboard player who's actually
laying the structure of the sound, he may do something different.
And so I'm anticipating one thing, anticipation being thing, I'm,
because I'm actively listening, I can hear when something else
happens that allows that sparks a different type of idea. And
again, because I'm responding, and I've got this, just Well, well
founded skill set, I can in turn, go where the music is going
to,
James Taylor
and that that unlike if you're playing in a jazz club with, you'll
have a quartet, for example. So you've got other people on stage
with you, a speaker is just you, usually, it's just you're on
stage, so you're kind of having to use them the audience as, as
your fellow band members is, it is a different relationship that
goes on now.
Jeff Ponders
Absolutely. But it's funny, I will even look at it like this, that
there's the audience and their meaning for this word, they're your
best mirror. But there's also the technology, what happens when,
when the slides go out? Right? I mean, you're you're, you're
listening to your environment as well, what happens with the audio
guy stops paying attention, and you can hear feedback or something
like that. There's so many things are happening again, you're
listening is just, it's your spatial awareness ultimately. And so
you're pulling off of what you should be pulling off a lot of
things not to mention me What happens if you're doing a speech and,
and it's a huge, it's a huge ballroom and a bird is in there. Yeah.
It's really random. But again, environmental, can you take that and
make that and turn it into a magic moment? Again, it's not a
mistake, but it's something that's happening and listening with
your eyes at this point, and turn it into a magic moment for the
audience. Because how often does the bird fly in your keynote?
James Taylor
Yeah, so there's other things I think about, like for speakers and
jazz musicians. I mean, we hear you know, for example, I was I was,
I think, in America, especially a lot of the great like, the zigzag
was of this world of great speakers, I think of a lot of it comes
from the frankly, the preaching tradition, the gospel tradition, in
jazz obviously comes from gospel as it blues and gospel can have
roots as well. So they use a lot of things like cold call and
response gets used a lot with and musicians will use that between
each other. They'll have little phrases that they'll copy. And then
they'll take that phrase, almost like Mozart used to do a theme and
variation. So it's not really impressive, but theme and so you can
go in on one I've seen, I saw someone who actually was I think it
was Oprah saying she did the the big awards ceremony. And she had
this amazing speech that she gave, as part of I think it was the
Golden Globe Awards. Last year, I saw. And she used a number of
devices, which I think they have a lot of resentment to the music.
And one of the ones I had it used to in particular, and I thought
of one was that she was using 10 tension release. So it says, as
musicians, I mean, we talked about how musicians do there's not
really speakers. So that was one I heard you like 10. And then
there was released. And the other one that uses incredibly well is
pause, pausing breath, you know, like Louie Armstrong, for example,
is very, very good at that. It's the spaces in between what you do
and what you say and what you play is as powerful as actually what
you say. So, I really like those two things like what we as
speakers can learn from, like tension and release and what we can
also learn from from intentional pausing.
Jeff Ponders
So tension and release is such a powerful tool. You know, if
everything is good, you don't recognize how good it is. And so the
idea of, again, we mentioned magic earlier, the idea of creating
the oh my god moment, whether it's what's going to happen or I feel
that pain, and then coming in and offering not just the release of
it but truly the comfort and the restoration. One, it allows you to
have good motion in your in your talk, but more importantly For the
listener, it allows it creates a euphoric moments that make your
make your sweets memorable. It's the idea that you made me feel
good. And they don't think that it's but chemically, that's what's
happening. You're making somebody feel good consistently. It's
almost like dating it's, it's the flowers and candy that happened
unexpected if you had an argument and then you had a makeup moment
if you have and those things are powerful and they make they make
things memorable. On the flip side, you don't make it I don't, I
don't miss a second point. Essentially release.
James Taylor
Like pausing like the fall. I mean, I think about someone like
something like Louis Armstrong is jazz musician. He used pausing
this, it was almost like the space between the notes were more
important than the notes themselves as well. So I'd like you know,
how does that relate to speak? Yes,
Jeff Ponders
it's funny, there's Miles Davis had a cold, he said, sometimes the
most important note is the note you don't play. And what's powerful
about that is the idea that if you hit somebody with a wall of
content, how much can they actually retain there's, you know, we
talked about the magic number three there, three, you know, in any
point in time, we're gonna remember three things from what somebody
says to us. If you allow pause, you allow the listener a moment to
stop and actually process what just happened, rather than hit them
with 45 minutes to an hour worth of words. At that point, you can
have the most amazing takeaways ever. But you just gave 25,000
words Yeah. How many can somebody really remember?
James Taylor
It's like one of the things with AC with with guitarists, which one
of the downsides that in why more guitarists, I think should listen
to a horn player sax players, and also singers is because as a sax
player, you have to breathe. So unfortunately, get to get the
guitar players haven't quite learned that. And so the it's just
like this flurry of notes they're going on. And we're probably
already experienced with speakers as like these, this flurry of
information and no point do I get charged as the audience member to
go there to breathe, take a pause. And it's great singers are good
thing because they have to do this you as a horn player, you have
to do this, you have to breathe, and it means you will play certain
things. And there's also certain things that you can't do as well.
So you have to find ways to kind of compensate for that.
Jeff Ponders
Oh, man, that was that was really well satisfying. We talked about
you mentioned Oprah and using Zig Ziglar. And using, you know,
preaching style. Yeah, preaching is part of this delivery style. So
I grew up in a church and I'm not good at hooping anymore. there's
a there's a technique that preachers use, and it sounds absolutely
insane. But it gets audiences incredibly excited. It gives it
forces them the it literally forces them to breathe. And after they
get done, they have to stop and drink water because it's throat
burning. Um, but again, so I referenced that one in terms of pause,
but also the idea of recognizing what you do and what you don't do.
I don't who, um, and so, as a speaker, I'm naturally excited. I'm
easily excited as a human being. I'm high energy, but I'm not gonna
I'm not the guy who's gonna yell at you. You got to do it. You can.
That's not my style, probably. But even doing that right now. I
feel a little tickle in my throat and I might pay for it. Yeah. But
I recognize there are other things I can do that can just as effect
that can just as effectively get somebody excited and get them to,
to really embrace the passion of a moment, whether it's how I use
my facial facial expressions, or my body language, or even the fact
that I might use a saxophone and scat
James Taylor
that's one of the understand that doesn't you know, scatting What
is scatting?
Jeff Ponders
So if you've ever heard somebody say DB Abba, Dabba Doo better
about it ever. Did you get better, better, better, better, better?
Bah, bah, bah. It's almost like it's singing like an instrument.
Yeah. It's kind of fun. Everybody can do it. Come on. Yeah.
James Taylor
And in fact, funnily enough, where I'm speaking from Scotland. We
have a tradition that similar to that because a lot of scouting has
come from oral fish. India has the same thing like tabla players
learn stuff orally, so you have to be able to sing it before you
can. You can play it in Scotland, they had to it was an orchard
nothing was written down. So you have to do that as well. But
actually, it's almost like an art form in itself. Doing
scattering.
Jeff Ponders
Absolutely. Is there are there folks who are masters getting
elephants journal? Yeah. Amazing. If you look at Layla Hathaway in
terms of modern singers, Laila Hathaway, her father was Donny
Hathaway, amazing solo artists, Laila. She's, uh, she's she's like,
she can sing chords by herself. It's crazy. But as as a vocalist,
she's a better musician than most musicians. It's interesting. You
talked about oral tradition and the idea of listening and listening
to learn. Even going back to Zig Ziglar. And how how we borrow from
folks, again, that that concept of listening as a musician, one of
the things that's really important for us when we listen to our
stuff, Listen to our bandmates. We listen to the audience, but we
also listen to the greats. And as we are listening is education is
the idea of not just what it's not what can I steal? But what do I
hear? How do I learn the language of the of the art, just like with
speakers, you know, if you're watching this, this, this this
interview right now, this is you're studying this so you can learn
the language of art form of speaking and motivation and inspiration
and instruction. And it's how we intentionally apply our listening
to folks who come before us or folks who have different
perspectives, in order to enhance our skill sets and make ourselves
better.
James Taylor
And sometimes it's not necessarily the thing that they say, you
know, there's exactly a certain type of thing. And the spokesperson
kind of thing is not literally what I speak about, or you speak
about. But you can learn also things that I think about, like
phrasing, and articulation, there'll be certain lines that he would
say, where it would just, it would be like building upon itself,
you'd use a lot of like classic rhetorical devices, in terms of
repetition, musicians use all the time, they'll say a phrase, and
then they'll repeat the phrase slightly different, and then repeat
phrase slightly different as well. So sometimes you can learn from
these people, even if they speak in a completely different topic
from you, then there's always something there, there's something it
could be in the way that they phrase something, the way they build
up to something, it could be in their physical gestures, the
physicality on stage. And it can also be, I mean, under some
visitors, I've seen this, you can watch them with a musician or a
speaker. And you say, that's what I don't want to do.
Jeff Ponders
It's so funny, you see this. So I went to a talk. So Les Brown gave
a talk in my hometown a few weeks ago. And so, you know, les is one
of the great speakers of our time. And so I went for the sake of
I'm studying what he's doing. And so less than an amazing job with
pause, he did an amazing job of calling response, how he leveraged
his slides, if he wasn't selling on stage, which I'm not a I'm not
a selling speaker. But he did a great job of providing really cool,
next best action and calls to action for the audience to stay
connected with them. That were, they weren't obtrusive, they were
just subtle as Hey, sign up here for for free, you know, free daily
inspiration, which is a lot in line with what he does. On the flip
side, there were other speakers I've seen over the last few weeks,
you know, one guy and one of them. And one of my one of my speaking
coaches, he reiterates to me make sure you you find your base, and
you plant yourself. And again, they don't paste the stage. And so
there's a gentleman and the speaker, he paced the stage. And so I
grew up with a WWF. We're not it's not a WWE WWF. And the way he
paints the stage reminded me of a WWF wrestling, I was like, I get
it, I don't want to do that, or is another speaker and he had
really amazing content. But his body language, he kept his head
down, his chin was buried to his chest. And again, delivery wasn't
bad to use vocal inflection, even for his facial expressions. But
because his head was down the whole time, it was hard to connect
with him. And so listening, at that point, I'm listening to my eyes
like you, I don't want to do those things. But I appreciate how you
how he, how he leverages inflection to highlight important
points.
James Taylor
And you can do this we had Elizabeth McCormick great speaker. And
she, whenever she, her educated, didn't have any mentors around her
where she lived at the time when she was becoming a speaker. So she
just watched videos, your YouTube videos and other speakers and she
had a yellow pad legal pad and she drew a line down the center. And
on the left side, you put the things that she liked about a
speaker, it could be the style or articulation or presentation
where the thing was, but on the right she used to put things that
she didn't want to emulate as well. So it can be useful, you know,
to look at one thing I often think is, I think great musicians do
this might we've mentioned Miles Davis, great speakers do this,
their their presentations, their speeches, their music, it almost
operates at different levels, you can even get into in different
levels. So listening something like sketches of Spain, Miles Davis,
you can you can listen to that background music, making dinner,
really nice, very chilled, very relaxing, you could listen to
another level up, where you could just get really like listening
lives like that. And then there's a completely different level you
can listen to if you're if you're a musician, especially a jazz
musician, because you're listening in slightly different ways. And
I think the great speakers, they can they can do this, they can
appeal to that person is just new in an organization and speaking
conference there. You know, the the new person has just gotten
started, they could speak to that, that middle manager who has a
different set of challenges and what they're trying to do, and they
can speak to the CEO and the C suite. But the speech works, it
works all different levels. I think that that requires real mastery
to be able to do to do that.
Jeff Ponders
It's so funny to talk about mastery. I think that's one of the
things that I think music teaches you that most professional Tracks
don't teach you is the idea of mastery. For example, a part of the
framework that I teach is practice rehearsing perform practices,
development of individual individual skills. Rehearsal is how you
apply those skills with teams. Performance is how you deliver those
skills and talents to your marketplace. But the thing with music is
that it doesn't stop with performance. There's literally a cycle of
practice worse perform, you're consistently feeding your skill set,
you're consistently learning how to work better with folks in
consistently assessing your performance. So that example betters
that go back, there's no such thing as perfect. It's always How can
I be better, whereas in day to day, most folks, they go and they do
their jobs, and they just do their jobs, and it's not consistent.
They're not feeding that skillset, they're not feeding their
ability to the capacity to perform better. And for me, that's a big
deal. It's a huge part of the idea of peak performance is well, you
have to keep feeding it keep beating in order to perform better.
But that comes from music, because that's what we have to do. If
you talk about the speakers. How we think it's one thing to say
let's refresh our content. It's another thing to say, How can I How
can I make myself more marketable? How can I reach broader
audiences? Meaning How can I take one talk, and within this talk,
have concepts that are, that are simple enough for a fifth grader
to get it and find value, but have the depth and the depth of
content, that if I present this to a CEO, you know, with some
nuance, I think part of part of being a musician is also the idea
of recognizing who your audience is, and making modifications to
your setlist to fit to play the right to play the right stuff at
the right gig subsequently, when we you know, as we look at our
audiences of speakers, you may have your talk. But how did you talk
needs to be tweaked in a way that's, that's natural, who you are
and how you deliver to make sure that's appropriate for the
audience. Because your sales folks don't need the same talk as your
CEO. And it may be the same base talk. But how do you tweak your
examples? How do you tweak your body language? Do you put on a
blazer now instead of you wear a blazer with no tie instead of
wearing the full the full tuxedo? Yeah, nobody was
James Taylor
nobody was thinking about, you know, that can relate to how you
structure your your set, whereas music set or your your 15 minute
keynote, or however long it is. And we think about something like
Duke Ellington used to do, he would usually start a mid tempo like
little dial in or something at that tempo. And then he would take
the audience up that that's, you know, how you see he was doing it,
because he was doing a lot of concerts. But if you were maybe
playing a different type of venue, let's say be more of a, a club
or something. You might start like hearing people right between the
eyes blinking. Yeah, so that's right reactor. And I think then we
also kind of get into like the audience is, is the is like a
partner and what you're creating, but actually, I think a lot of
times the venue, the place that you're playing in itself, you know
that that small room that you're speaking to maybe 100 people is
going to, you're going to give a different type of talk probably to
the room that you're giving 1000 people like music musicians know
this kind of instinctively, when you go and play in a jazz club,
you know, certain things will work better than others, because it's
a small place, low ceiling, the bass will carry very, very well.
But if you're playing, let's say, if you're playing a church, like
a big Cathedral type church, doing fast things just doesn't really
work in those places, you have to be much longer notes, because you
have the reverb in the place as well. So so you can also kind of
apply those things about listening to the actual, the place where
you're presenting also has an impact as well as the audience
Jeff Ponders
ask me that. That's a really, really, really good perspective and
absolutely true. It's when I think about that, what I what I think
about ultimately, as speakers, we're doing more than giving a talk,
we're delivering an experience. And it you know, I come from a
marketing background and experience design is a big part of what
I've done in my life. And as a musician, as a speaker, as an
entrepreneur, I think about what's the experience that I'm
delivering right now. It's not what's the talking because what's
the experience in delivering because it in real life, most folks
don't remember most of what we say, but they do remember how we
made them feel they remember, aesthetically what happened when they
walked in. And it while we don't have control over all these
elements, we can think about how can I craft a memorable
experience. And that can be everything from for me, the fact that I
might have a saxophone on stage is memorable, because most folks
can't do that. Yeah, um, if we, if we create a song together, if I
create a song with the small group, or I bring up five people and
you're going to be the drummer, you're going to be the basis you're
gonna play the melody and I'm gonna sit here and conduct you guys
or better yet you're going to conduct us that's a memorable
experience, whether you're a participant or an observer, and so
becomes how can based off of your platform How can you take what
you do and make it inclusive of your audience? And that doesn't
mean that doesn't mean do what I just talked about in terms of
bringing them on stage. But it's how can you create this symbiotic
experience, that leaves somebody not only walking away with really,
really valuable tangible points, but feeling like, but actually
feel like, Hey, that was really good for me, I want to tell
somebody what just happened, because that's how we ultimately build
sustainable careers as speakers.
James Taylor
I think in order to do that, and this has me below, like mental
thing that maybe some speakers have to go through, you have to
essentially treat the audience like everyone in that room is equal,
in the sense that everyone has something that they can they can
bring in, frankly, if you're speaking to a room of any more than 20
people, there'll be someone in there that knows a lot, maybe a lot
more about your subject than maybe you even think you know, so I
think it's kind of being humble in that sense. But I think the
other thing if you start to do that, and that's maybe not right for
all speakers and all events, but you know, we think about someone
like me, it's jazz as an example there. So jazz does require that
the audience works a little bit harder than if they were going to
list a rock concert, because the things are being said, it's like
going to a poetry a little bit less of a Leanback is more of a lean
end type of experience of going to jazz cake. So if you treat
people in the audience, like everyone is my equal in that room.
And, and also, I want to, I think there's people, the people in
that room, I can make them work a little bit with their brain, too.
So I'll give an example of this. Art Tatum, great jazz pianist, one
of the amazing things that he used to do was, he made it sound like
he was doing a lot more than he was actually playing. And he was
able to do that by essentially making you as a listener, the
audience member, fill in the blanks, using your imagination, he
wasn't actually playing those. So you'd hear a lot of time, he
would recall as a jazz musician, implying time, he wasn't playing,
like exactly four beats to the bar or anything, he would be
implying it by certain things he was he was playing. So you as the
audience member, were essentially filling in the blank. So as a
speaker, you might be as you're crafting your speech and working
with an audience, they may be almost thinking, so you're saying
something or, but you're not actually saying it. It's them. They're
filling in the blanks, and people that do NLP and stuff of that are
masters at this kind of stuff. And this week, I'm actually seeing
Tony Robbins, he's gonna be speaking at something. And he's very
good at that of essentially having you do workers as the audience
member, is there anything like you know, on on that that topic,
having the making sure that the audience are not just sitting back,
but they're actually leaning into the experience, and actually an
active participant in in, in the keynote, there's been given
anything that we could be doing better speakers?
Jeff Ponders
And the answer is always Yes. We can all be doing things better. So
this is a no, this is to me, this is really, how do you create
engaged audiences? Or how do you stimulate engaged audiences? That
that's the question to me. At least, that's the way I that process
that and I don't think that there are, there's no cookie cutter for
this. I mean, I can talk about jazz techniques for it. But the, you
know, the technical that ultimately talked about is, Alright, hey,
if you're Charlie Parker, you play fat. versus if you're a
Coltrane, who's not in his bass playing state, and is really
playing these more spiritually induced sounds. You're doing
different things. And so first things first is understanding who
you are, what you do, what you do and what you don't do, too. It's
funny, I've got a model on my whiteboard over to my right here. I
don't want to show it yet. I'm miked up, that I use to help help
individuals really build their brand identity, individuals and
brands. And so part of that is understanding what your mission is
why what's Why are you Why are you here? Why are you talking? In
our case? Why are you Why are you speaking to what's your message?
And three, it's alright, what do you want somebody to feel? What
are those brand attributes you want somebody associated with you?
And how do you ultimately craft an experience that does that
example for me? My big why's I want people to create lives that
worth remembering. And that means when something's worth
remembering, you write it down, you take a picture, you do
something to record and that says you don't forget what happened.
And so the brand attributes I'm hip smart and creative, meaning I'm
cool enough that I'm relatable, but hip is like a little bit
cooler. And so in a smart, which is, you know, makes sense and
creative is, which is more than music is the idea that finding
unique ways to do things example jazz to talk about professional
performance is a unique spin on that. And so for that it gives me a
lot of latitude to figure out how can I create hip smart, creative
experiences for audiences. So really kind of digging into what your
unique sauces and then outside it is awesome at that point else
becomes, okay, I'm doing a talk for 100 people versus 5000 people
5000. audience participation is a little different, is a lot more
risk and saying, Hey guys, let's make a song together versus with
50 people where I can say, hey, James, I can see your name tag.
Yeah, James, can you help out. And, man, that's not always the
right way to do it either. But it's understanding who you are,
James Taylor
that's important as well, because we can often feel like bigger is
better playing the bigger venues is stadiums and things is the way
to go. But in doing that, you also lose, you lose some of the
intimacy and being able to try and try something. So I think I
think every speaker kind of has to find this the I mean, we all
probably sense it, this is our, this is my ideal size, this is I
love speaking that side, if that is your ideal size, do you have
photography on your website that has you speaking to audiences of
that size, because that's so cuz you'll get more, you'll probably
get more bookings or that kind of size, the kind of places that you
want to be be speaking in planning. And I just want to as we kind
of start to finish up this this interview as well I'm, I mean,
treat what is in your, your speaker bag, what is in that bag you
carry with you to all of your speaking engagements. So you
obviously, you can have your saxophone, which is kind of an unusual
thing to have in a speaker bags. But what else what else is gonna
be in there,
Jeff Ponders
I don't think I have a whole lot honestly, my phone is there. Um,
cuz I, I use my phone to take notes, I use my phone to take
pictures, I probably get a better camera on my phone. But my phone
is kind of like the center of life. And I'll even do website
updates and stuff like that. So my phone is a big, big, big, big
deal. Um, this is gonna sound crazy, in my speaker bag is space.
And so the to take us to take them to take three minutes before
talk, and just go and be quiet. And just, you know, hone in I I've
ever been performing mind literally my entire life. And it's not
butterflies always happen. But that three minutes before before
talk is invaluable. Just to settle on, refocus, you know, I know my
stuff. But having looked at the room and say, Okay, let me not
spend too much time on this one. That that time that space is
probably that's probably more valuable than my phone. But it's a
big deal. Um, I keep lotion, because my hands get ashy. And I just,
you know, that's the thing for me. I like my hands to feel softer.
So that doesn't really matter too much of my talk, but it makes me
feel
James Taylor
I think when you're traveling a lot as well, you know, those things
are I mean, forget like this. We are an instrument our body is an
instrument our voices we are we are our instrument in that sense.
So if you see if you take your saxophone player sax to certain
places, certain countries climates, ticker guitars, and it's going
to react well or not so well in different places. And you need to
kind of look at it you need to ensure just keep an eye on it. Same
thing with our voice. So like, you know, those motion those look
those kind of lotions, water, all that stuff is actually really
pretty critically important because
Jeff Ponders
I'll click it too. I bring that up. Yeah, I do. I've definitely
seen experience. It was like, Oh, this isn't gonna work out too
well. And I'm the very, very first talk I gave. I try I tried to
use one. There's a second one. I tried to use my phone and my phone
was distracting. It was. Don't do that. Yeah, it's crazy. It looks
so unprofessional. So that was like, Hey, I'm using keynote. I've
got keynote on my phone. I'm like really trendy. Now, not it was
not the thing to do. So I went and a good buddy of mine, Ryan
foland. He made a recommendation for an amazing clicker. And I
can't run anymore right now i can i can send it to you. But it's
awesome. Just having
James Taylor
like, in some ways that there's an instrument there as well. So
having that thing you feel confident in you know,
Jeff Ponders
I know it's gonna work, everything else is
James Taylor
maybe going to hell, but you have a couple of things. What about a
book is there one book you would recommend to to maybe an aspiring
speaker or professional speaker could be a speaking they can maybe
I know your your background. You speak a lot as on marketing
creativity as well.
Jeff Ponders
So there's a is a pastor in Atlanta named Andy Stanley. Andy
Stanley's father's Charleston, Andy Stanley's a bad he's a bad
dude. He's good. He wrote a book called communicating for change.
And he wrote it. I guess it's designed to build sermons. But
there's a really good framework there and smart science behind it.
And it's a way of capturing attention relating to the audience,
pulling them in, helping nail down the key insight and make it
memorable, and then giving helping them walk away feeling like
something changed. superpower. It was amazing. Wonderful.
James Taylor
We'll put that link here as well. What about a tool is that you
mentioned you've taught your firm before? Is it an online app or
like a mobile app or an online tool you find really useful for
yourself as a speaker.
Jeff Ponders
I don't have one I don't have I don't I don't have like a go to
tool as a speaker I've done. I've a example, I've used grant
Baldwins platform. And that's been that was that was, I think he
did a great job putting together a speaker platform form. There a
couple of them testing out right now. But nothing was like that's
the one you got to have. Though a smart CRM CRM system is a good
thing, too, isn't one in particular you would recommend is is the
one that a CRM that you tend to use. So I ran, and I'm using
nimble. But I've seen powerful things with HubSpot as well.
James Taylor
Yeah, HubSpot is great, especially on the content, the content
marketing side as well. What but I'm gonna kind of just finish up
here. If you had to start again, tomorrow, I'm gonna let you
imagine, choose whichever city you want to start in, you have to
restart your career, you have all the skills you've acquired over
the years, but no one knows you. And you know, no one, you have to
completely restart. What would you do? How would you restart?
Jeff Ponders
I think it'll be it'll be, it wouldn't be that crazy for me. Only
because I can take a saxophone somewhere and say, Hey, and I can
make a kind of fun. So I'd probably pick a city that embraces jazz.
So a New Orleans or Chicago, New York is huge. And it's like it'd
be warm, but it's huge. And so it's easy to get lost there. But in
New Orleans, or Chicago may be a Dallas. And so in Atlanta falling
into, so I pick up so I'm a corporate speaker. And so I'd be
looking at company areas with lots of corporations and a warm
chassis. And I would leverage the musical experience in mind as
well as about corporate relationships to, to kind of kickstart
things. Um, that's it too. So the other thing that I would do, and
it's actually it's, oddly enough, is we didn't talk about this
before, but there's a so I'm big. I mentioned creating experiences,
right. And so as speakers we we hustle hard to get beautiful
relationships and to find relationships with event planners and
conference planners to get booked. I've never been a believer in
waiting, waiting on an opportunity to find you though. And so, for
example, what I've done is I've created a lunch and learns workshop
series where, where a company or you know, a client can buy a
package that's a two hour experience with that includes launch live
performance, and a workshop, a keynote in a workshop that I can
take as a product and sell the experience. So part of what I would
do is starting over will be outside of making friends and playing
music would be develop a product that's easy to that's easy and
warmly received and using that to kind of spark the next level
James Taylor
fantastic. And if people want to reach out to you maybe to refer
you for a speaking opportunity or just do it can reach out with a
really enjoyed what you've been sharing today. where's the best
place for them to go and do that?
Jeff Ponders
Do you go to Jeff Ponders calm that is the center of my universe
right now. If you look on social media, if it's Jeff Ponton, it's
probably me. And as partners with an S so je FF er, je FF p o nd
ers, you'll find me. Yeah, that would be the best thing. It'd be
great. I'm looking forward to hearing feedback from you guys. And
hopefully, this conversation has been helpful.
James Taylor
Well, Jeff has been a pleasure speaking with you today. I look
forward to sharing the stage together. I don't know where it's
going to be as musicians or whether it's going to be your speakers,
but I'm sure will be
Jeff Ponders
a good idea.
James Taylor
We can combine them both as well. But thanks so much for coming on
today.
Jeff Ponders
pleasure speaking to you. I wish you all the best with your new
member of your family and all your speaking as well.
James Taylor
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